Topics covered (excerpts):I think I made some colleagues happy and others unhappy, unfortunately. So seniors are ultimately the scapegoats of a flawed system. Younger people need experience, and older people need the desire to learn. And young people say, "I hate politics." But knowing how to give and take is part of the job, because you're never alone in an organization. But the difference may be that we're all going to grow old. Because we always end up becoming the person we didn't want to look at. People say that young people are too demanding, that they want meaning, values, pleasure, a boss who is also a coach, a high salary, and flexible hours. They also say that older people don't understand anything, that they slow things down, complain, cling to power, and block any change. Former HR Director at SNCF, member of the Executive Committee, then moving to a start-up at the age of 50, Bénédicte Tilloy has been to the top of the pyramid. She gave up power, status, and her office for a start-up that taught her to stop being important. Today, she co-founded Ask for the Moon, an AI platform to accelerate the sharing of expertise, and 10 h 32, an agency that supports executives in times of crisis. What if she were the youngest, coolest, and most visionary person in the room? Welcome to Beyond Wakan Life. I'm Benjamin Suchard, co-founder and CEO of Work Life. Let's get started!

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Benjamin Suchar: Hello, Bénédicte Tilloy. It's very nice to be considered the youngest in the room. I don't know if that's true. Well, listen, you said I was the queen of a world that no longer existed. What is that world?

Bénédicte Tilloy: It's a world that is organized within itself. In fact, it's a context in which everything is coherent, but everything is coherent so that the people who live in this world feel comfortable there, not necessarily in relation to the outside world. And when you leave a Comex, and when you leave power, you see it from another point of view and in fact, you see it, you see it a little naked in fact, and you discover that you no longer have power, you no longer have, you no longer have, you no longer have the same relationships with others. You have to relearn everything. And it's quite refreshing. Well, it's not fun at first. But then it ended up being refreshing. That's what happened to me.

Benjamin Suchar: And that world is a world that is linked to generation or a world that is linked to power. Ultimately.

Bénédicte Tilloy: It's a world, it's a world that's linked to O. Well, to put it bluntly, I've been there. I loved the SNCF, I still love it, but it was built around an ambition to develop the railways. It's a 150-year-old company, so it was built around that, around safety issues. It is. It obviously seeks to renew itself every day, and it does so. But the entire organization, all the processes, they weren't invented ten years ago, some of them were invented 100 years ago. And the people who make this happen on a daily basis are used to it. And so this world doesn't move fast enough compared to a world that is that of a whole bunch of people, of everyone, who, who, who moves faster. I don't know how to say it, but.

Benjamin Suchar: Yes, you've completely changed. In fact, when you left the SNCF, you found yourself in a whole new world. What was that like?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Well, actually, I discovered that everything I knew was no longer very useful, and that I didn't know the things that would be useful. So I've known this for a very long time. I was already used to doing the things I asked others to do myself. And when you do that, you don't realize that the world has changed and that the way things are done is no longer the same. And it did me good to do things myself again and realize that I wasn't necessarily very good at doing them myself. So that meant relearning, relearning the codes, relearning how to do simple things. We talk a lot about digital technology, but relearning it not by talking about it, but by actually using it. Relearning how to relate to another world. It was difficult, but beneficial, and I really don't regret doing it because, in the end, I loved it.

Benjamin Suchar: And you find yourself in a world, a company where ultimately everyone talks only about the company, about the mission. And then you were telling me earlier that ultimately, life isn't just about the company, except maybe for the CEO. Can you tell me more about that?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Yes, actually, I really struggle with the idea of the company as a family. The idea that, first of all, there's no end-of-year speech that doesn't end with "We're one big family, we've all succeeded together," etc. And I... I fight against that a little because making the company the be-all and end-all of your life means running the risk of being extremely disappointed when the company doesn't recognize you as highly as you hoped. But the company has its own objectives. It's not there to build people's careers, it's there to develop itself. And when you don't understand that, you can be extremely disappointed and feel betrayed when you've devoted your life to it and your career doesn't pan out, which can happen. And when you join a start-up, what you see is that the CEO's life is the company, because in fact he carries it within him, she has carried it within her for practically forever. And in fact, it's a dream come true for them, and they hope that it will be the same for all the people who work with them. And my belief is that this is only possible when you allow others to be more than just executors, but to co-construct the dream with the CIO.

Benjamin Suchar: And what's also hard, I think, as a CEO, is that you have this inherent confidence, you don't really need anyone else to move forward, because it's your baby, you want to take it as far as possible. And it's also difficult to understand that the people around you need to be motivated. And that's why, ultimately, being a founder or being a manager are two quite different roles.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Yes, it's definitely different, and I think that's one of the reasons why, when companies grow, the founders end up leaving their operational roles because, in fact, that's the only way for the company to develop: you have to give everyone the opportunity to be part of it. And you see the problem with the visionary CEO. The problem with the visionary CEO is that their vision stops where they decide to stop it, while others can take it much further than the idea they had at the beginning. And that's what you have to let happen.

Benjamin Suchar: And perhaps concrete elements that enable greater creativity within the company. Is it by sharing company shares, in a very concrete way, or is it by ultimately stimulating creativity? How do you do that as a CEO? What advice do you give them?

Bénédicte Tilloy: It's not easy. First of all, because it's a bit... It takes a little humility and self-sacrifice. It's about letting go, leaving people with their questions and giving them the opportunity to answer them for themselves before imposing your own answers on them. And it's really hard because, as you say, since we have completely endogenous self-confidence, we already know we would have wanted to write the score for our collaborators to play, to show off, but in fact we have to let them write the music.

Benjamin Suchar: And for that, wouldn't it take a little wisdom and experience from people of other generations to be able to contribute those elements?

Bénédicte Tilloy: That's my belief. The world of start-ups is a world of young people, good-looking guys in jeans who often went to Polytechnique or HEC, and are usually male. The idea that they could actually team up with older, wiser people makes a lot of sense, but it requires a good understanding between them. But we don't have the same codes, we don't have the same relationship to power, we don't have the same relationship to commitment, we don't have the same relationship to... We haven't lived the same lives, we haven't watched the same TV shows, we don't have the same references, so we have to make an effort to talk to each other every day to make it work. Otherwise, we run the risk of ending up in a quarrel between the old and the new, or of having the CIO who doesn't want to be with his mom or the mom or the dad who doesn't want to. Who wants to tell the CIO, "Go, go tidy your room and we'll talk about it later."

Benjamin Suchar: Beyond the codes, what are the main differences ultimately? You mention kind people too. Are you referring to seniors, elderly people? Do you dare say elderly? We're not going to say seniors.

Bénédicte Tilloy: I say old because, you see, now it's 40, 50, and seniors who go to clubs. Well, I'm 64, so I'm a senior XXL. So yeah, you could say old, but in fact, it's experience that's important, and you can have experience when you're younger, too. It's experience, it's the desire to learn. In fact, younger people need experience and older people need the desire to learn. And when both understand that, then we can actually work together properly. If we lock ourselves into divergent worldviews and oppose each other and throw them back in each other's faces, it doesn't work. Okay. And so that means talking a lot to explain, including explaining the words we use every day that aren't right, and making sure we're on the same page. Okay.

Benjamin Suchar: And so today, we can see that it's still quite difficult for seniors or older people to find employment. Well, there's a study that came out not long ago showing that the employment rate for 60-64 year olds is at its highest since records began in 1975, but it's still well below the European average. So is that good news or bad news?

Bénédicte Tilloy: That's good news. If progress is being made, it's bad news that we're at the bottom of the European scale. It's actually closely linked to the way we view work in France and the fact that we have it. We have polarized all the debates on retirement based on the assumption that working is tiring and unbearable and that it would be better to leave work. And so companies are organizing themselves to get rid of their senior employees so that young people can quickly move into positions of responsibility. As a result, older workers understand that at a certain point, it will be the beginning of the end, and everyone has this idea in their heads. The idea that once you reach a certain age, you have to think about something else.

Benjamin Suchar: So seniors are ultimately the scapegoats of a flawed system.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Maybe, maybe. They are scapegoats, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to be one. They are also partly responsible for thinking, for example, that they are too old to learn, that at their age, you can't impose certain things on them. All of that is fine. But we've seen it all before. Despite everything, we need to take a fresh look at things and accept being challenged by those younger than ourselves if we want to retain responsibility or, at least, if we want to be listened to in an organization that doesn't want to hear us. And that requires an attitude of discovery, curiosity, a willingness to learn, to listen to what those younger than you have to say. When I say younger than you, I mean younger in terms of age. Okay.

Benjamin Suchar: And when you compare it a little bit with Janzé, you often say that Janzé needs meaning. And basically, we give them meal vouchers. Yeah. So what is it then? Giving meaning for you?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Well, first of all, there are lots of people who want meaning. It's not just young people who want meaning. It's just that they are probably more attached to it. But meaning is first and foremost about being. Enjoying your daily work and having the means to do it well. That's the first thing. The second thing is doing something that serves societal issues you believe in. You don't want to work for a company that makes cigarettes. You don't want to work for a company that makes fertilizers or pesticides. And thirdly, we like the company we work for and want to be involved in its development. That's pretty much what it means. Well, it's possible, but extremely difficult for everyone to achieve. And that's why there are a lot of people who, in fact, have been disappointed. The meaning they see at the beginning eventually turns into a big disappointment, and at that point, they start to behave cynically or critically. In any case, we see people becoming desperate more quickly. And you know, it's in associations that people are the most unhappy and where there is the most burnout. Interesting.

Benjamin Suchar: But then I'm not very objective because, you know, we make headlines, so we try to restore impact, to restore commitment through social policies. But when you look at the studies, for young people, compensation and benefits remain the number one criteria for choosing a job, right?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Actually, it's all of those things at once. In other words, it's a criterion, it's a criterion for choosing, it's not a criterion for staying.

Benjamin Suchar: I understand.

Bénédicte Tilloy: And the criterion for staying is the ability to feel like a committed employee who is recognized as such by the entire company management, in other words, to feel that you matter to the company.

Benjamin Suchar: That's interesting. In fact, we interviewed Stéphane Michel before, who was a previous podcast guest and who was a management coach. He said, "The big difference between generations is setting an example." In other words, today's young people need their coaches, managers, and company bosses to set an example, whereas before, people would say, "No, that's okay, he's the boss." There used to be a kind of respect for authority that we no longer have today. Why was that acceptable before, but not anymore?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Well, I think there's a desire to be managed by people we admire, whereas before we accepted not admiring them because things were external to us. In fact, we were given a framework with rules, and today the framework is much more relaxed, the rules are less defined, and so on. Everything is built on relationships with others and relationships with others. It's something infinitely intangible, something we build with each person. And we can be a good manager with some people and a bad manager with others, because people don't have the same aspirations. I remember very well that I think I made some employees happy and others unhappy, unfortunately. I know that when I try, why? I know why at Transilien, I did. I was quite sensitive to letting people discover things for themselves. In fact, a number of things. There were people who were very, very attached to the boss telling them what to do and how to do it in detail. And those people who were used to having bosses like that, I think I lost them. And I remember being very, very sad and finding it very difficult to hear one of my employees tell me that I had been the worst boss of his life for that reason. For that reason. I had made an impression. Yes, well, yes. So you have to chart the course, provide the vision, help pave the way from time to time, and leave enough room for others to chart their own course. But not everyone is the same; not everyone has the same desire to be given free rein. And you have to be able to understand and interpret that.

Benjamin Suchar: And adapt.

Bénédicte Tilloy: And to adapt.

Benjamin Suchar: So older managers can still inspire younger ones after all.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Yes, yes, they understand that it is in the relationship with others that this management exercise is adjusted.

Benjamin Suchar: And if I understand correctly, much like CEOs of start-ups, they also need to learn to relinquish power.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Yes.

Benjamin Suchar: So ultimately, there is the concept of power that is intergenerational.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Power is... In fact, for me, you have to distinguish between power, impact, and strength. Okay. Power is what your job allows you to do. In other words, what your job description gives you. Your place in the organization gives you a certain amount of power. Then, the person you are, the way you embody your role on a daily basis, will give you strength. Because in fact, you're going to lose. You're going to be able to do much more with the power you've been given. And that's where you have impact, you see? So there are people who have a lot of power, but little strength and little impact. There are people who have very little power and a lot of impact. You see it in organizations, people, you see profiles, people who sometimes don't have big responsibilities, who aren't free to do whatever they want, but who everyone goes to because they're competent in their field. When they give you advice, they give it to you in a way that suits you. And in fact, these people are leaders who don't necessarily have power granted to them by the organization, but rather power and impact that they have found on their own, because who they are embodies values that others adhere to.

Benjamin Suchar: I understand. There has been a lot of talk about diversity, even if it's a term that's a little less fashionable at the moment. Inclusion started out largely as a question of quotas, of representing society as it is, rather than as it has been until now in organizations. Today, it's about how we ensure that everyone contributes so that the collective view is broader than when we had a small group of people who were all the same. That's why I think diversity means accepting to work with people who don't share the same values as you. It's not just a question of everyone having the same values and being black, white, Asian, or LGBT—it's not just that. Or young, or...

Bénédicte Tilloy: Young or old. It means accepting that we are capable of working with people who don't necessarily share the same values, but with whom we can find common ground to make progress on a particular issue. And that's really what they are.

Benjamin Suchar: Yes. To do so. Because values are ultimately what will bring us together, regardless of our background and where we come from.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Yes, but if we don't, if we don't accept working with people who don't share the same values, we create anger and we create people who, in fact, feel less included. And having worked in a company where social relations were very complicated. Yes. We realize that sometimes our value system and the value system of the people we work with intersect in a way that isn't very significant, but we still have to work with them. So the work involves searching with them for what brings us together.

Benjamin Suchar: So this intersection.

Bénédicte Tilloy: So that's what this intersection is about. But when you brandish absolute values, at first you want the intersection to be 100%, and that's not achievable.

Benjamin Suchar: And in order to have all these people who don't share the same values, you mention quotas. We need an index, we need a proper senior index, a gender equality index, for example.

Bénédicte Tilloy: At some point, you have to be forced by external circumstances or supernatural external factors, because otherwise, that's life, it's normal, you look for people you get along with, who are like you, and as a result, you end up surrounding yourself with people who are all the same. And my experience at the SNCF is that there are lots of people I've worked with whom I wouldn't have chosen, but whom I actually loved working with. Because they helped me discover things that weren't naturally within my spectrum.

Benjamin Suchar: But beyond pushing yourself, I think there's something you do really well, which is highlighting role models.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Yes

Benjamin Suchar: Because, for example, when I was 25, I hired my first sales director, and she was almost 50. And actually, it was really hard for me to say to myself, "OK, I'm going to take the plunge, I'm going to be able to manage." I felt like she was the one who trusted me, and I didn't know if I was going to be able to do it. And in fact, what was missing at that moment, and I think what I was missing, even though I managed to take the plunge, was a role model who could say, "Well, actually, yeah, you can be old in a world of young people and there are people who thrive on that. There are people who want to do that. And maybe that's why it takes courage as a young person to be able to say, "We're going to manage someone who has a lot more experience," and therefore promote role models. Ultimately, that's pretty fundamental, isn't it?

Bénédicte Tilloy: I completely agree with that. I think I was lucky, for example, to have female CEO role models who made me realize that it was possible, so I decided to go for it. My goal wasn't to be the first to do it; that motivates some people, but that wasn't the point. It's more like, some women have done it, so I can do it too. And it's true that I wanted to write profiles of older people to make people want to grow old, because I'm surrounded by people my age who are doing crazy things. And I think to myself, well, they're inventing things late in life. And people need to see that because, in fact, it needs to make them want to do it too. And it's true, you're right, it's not easy to direct an old person because we don't know how to go about it.

Benjamin Suchar: Especially the first time.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Especially the first time. So if someone has done it before, you think to yourself, maybe they managed it, so I can manage it too.

Benjamin Suchar: Well, your partner is younger. Hmm. How is that?

Bénédicte Tilloy: It's difficult. Yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy, it's not easy. And besides, I think that I'm letting him run the company without me today, because I think it's important that he be able to chart his own course, because he has to move quickly and the company has to move quickly. And I think that at some point, I was probably a little counterproductive.

Benjamin Suchar: How?

Bénédicte Tilloy: By being. Maybe a little more risk-averse. By wanting to study several scenarios at the same time, when you know that as an entrepreneur, in order to succeed, you have to. It's like. He has to ride a bike. So if he doesn't go fast enough, he falls. He has to go for it. He has to go for it. And that means accepting that you might fall off the bike and hurt yourself. And when you're a senior executive with a career ahead of you, you remember the times you fell off your bike and... You know it hurts. And you know it hurts.

Benjamin Suchar: So, I'm going to come back to the notion of power. You moved from the executive committee to a start-up, you say? I had to learn to unlearn, to be important. And so, ultimately, the question I want to ask you is, what is it about power that blinds people to the point of confusing importance with usefulness?

Bénédicte Tilloy: It's not that it makes you blind, it's that, like everyone else, there are only 24 hours in a day, so you have to prioritize your daily activities. By the time you do the things you care about, you spend your time arbitrating between things. Things that are. That are dealt with in millions. In thousands, sometimes in billions, etc. And so you forget. You can forget very simple things that are part of everyday life. And you have to make the effort to put everyday life in your agenda so that you don't risk losing sight of it. And that's work, and it's an effort you have to make, because everything leads to a trade-off that makes you, that doesn't, that doesn't, that doesn't, and that only looks at the biggest things, and therefore the things of power.

Benjamin Suchar: But looking back, that time when you were on the SNCF's executive committee, was it a walk in the park, or was it actually a challenge that caused you a lot of pain?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Both. Both? Both? What do you mean? It's extremely rewarding. First of all, socially speaking, let's be honest. It's extremely rewarding to be confronted with issues that are actually on a national scale. Redesigning a service schedule isn't work for millions of people, so it's quite rewarding. You meet people you see on TV. Okay. So all of that can be very rewarding. At the same time, power is a game of acting. You can enjoy acting, but you can also be hurt by it. You can devote time to it. Because everyone has a personal agenda alongside a collective agenda. And if you're not careful, you can find yourself damaged by scheming or...

Benjamin Suchar: That's politics.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Politics, huh? Meaning that we no longer really focus on the company's common goal, for example.

Benjamin Suchar: We do it so we can move the pieces around.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Actually, there is. You realize when you have power that just because a project is important and everyone believes in it doesn't mean it will succeed. However, everyone has a project. In an executive committee, everyone has projects to make successful for the company, but for their own scope. And the whole point is to mobilize your colleagues so that your own projects move forward, because they will contribute to them. So you have to get them interested in your project. And that means, at some point, getting them interested in your project and getting them to devote time to it. We were talking about trade-offs, time, getting them to devote time to it and you yourself devoting time to them. Time and money. And money. And so that's it. It's the trade-offs you make with your time, and the trade-offs you make with your time are always political, as we're seeing right now at the government level. So there's no such thing as a Comex that isn't political. I don't think so. It's not ideal. I don't think so. It's legitimate. We don't seem to have unlimited resources, since resources are limited, as we can see in the country's budget. Right now, there are trade-offs to be made. Trade-offs involve alternative visions, different visions from one another, projects that we can't all do, and let's look at the country level. We can't simultaneously develop hospitals, develop education, and develop our defense capabilities with a budget that may be shrinking. So there are these trade-offs, and we can see that this generates political issues and compromises between people in an executive committee. That's also part of it.

Benjamin Suchar: But young people say, "I hate politics, I don't want to be judged, I want to be judged on my actions, I don't want to give and take, I don't want to do stuff." So what do I tell them?

Bénédicte Tilloy: But knowing how to give and take is part of the job. Because you're never alone in an organization. It's always with others that you succeed in projects. And to get them involved, they have to give a little of themselves. They want you to give them a little of yourself. And that means balancing your time so that you can develop your own projects while contributing to those of others. What is that if not politics?

Benjamin Suchar: What advice would you ultimately give to a manager who wants to empower their entire team a little bit, but who may also be disconnected because they only have a few people around them? How do you do it?

Bénédicte Tilloy: I think what's important is to understand at what point in their daily lives employees feel that things really depend on them. Okay, that's what we need to know. And that's something we need to be able to measure: when they truly feel that success will be achieved thanks to them. So, there are internal surveys that allow us to check this. There's feedback from management, and there's the option of sitting down with someone without an agenda and just talking to them to understand, listen, and listen. I remember organizing a company seminar where I had Comex executives—sorry, I asked each member of the Comex, before coming to the seminar, to spend half a day with an employee they didn't know, without an agenda, to talk to them about their daily life. And when we had the seminar. Afterwards, everyone told me incredible stories, discoveries in fact, and we worked on the strategic plan because that was the subject. And I told them, let's formulate the strategic plan with words that will allow you to go back to all these people and say, "This is the strategic plan, this is how you fit into it."

Benjamin Suchar: Basically, at some point, you said, "No one was looking at me anymore, so I decided to draw myself." That's pretty intense, isn't it?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Yes, in fact, you realize that there are codes in every environment you go to, there are codes. When you're on the executive committee of a large organization that's over 100 years old, the codes are that the leaders tend to have gray hair and we do our degrees. So when you're young, when you don't have gray hair and you don't have a degree, it's hard to get by, right? That wasn't the case for me. I had gray hair and degrees. And when you change worlds, you realize that the codes are different. Except that it's not said. And so you realize that you're no longer important because you're no longer looked at. Because in fact, you no longer saw the respect that was due to you. Because it was part of the system. And you discover that when you arrive in another system, those codes no longer exist. And so your graying temples disqualify you rather than qualify you.

Benjamin Suchar: You said that when you raised funds, people barely looked at you and didn't even address you when asking questions, which was extremely hurtful. So what is it? Is it the digital world and startups that are anti-old?

Bénédicte Tilloy: It's the digital world that thinks that, in fact, to be an entrepreneur, you have to go for it, you have to devote your life to it, and that you have to be young to do that. And since there have been role models, we come back to the question of role models who were the role models of the start-up nation ten years ago. They were good-looking guys posing on a staircase in jeans and T-shirts. It was actually Zuckerberg who created the model of the cool, successful good-looking guy. And who. Wears. No. Which doesn't exactly work.

Benjamin Suchar: And what would you say to people who feel invisible?

Bénédicte Tilloy: First of all, I have to say that I was ashamed that in a previous life I didn't understand what people meant when they told me I was invisible, because I didn't feel like I wasn't looking at them. But in fact, it's a series of small, tiny things that add up and make you feel more watched. It's not that you don't walk into a room. Someone says to you, "Oh, I don't want to look at you." It's a series of tiny things that add up.

Benjamin Suchar: In other words, ultimately, there are little attacks that we can make along the way, which ultimately amount to what we call discrimination. Each little thing on its own, if we point it out, we say to ourselves, "Wait a minute, it's nothing and it's not intentional," but it's the daily repetition of all these little things that makes us realize that we are someone else to others and that we are not the same at all. And that in fact, it's easier for them not to see us than to accept that we're different because they don't know how to deal with people who are different.

Bénédicte Tilloy: And it's a bit of a vicious circle because then you feel even less inclined to put yourself forward, you lose confidence, and so on. You become, or you become very militant. OK. And sometimes, being very militant can upset people, which isn't easy. So, not being invisible means, for me, occasionally expressing your point of view in a straightforward way, without overdoing it. Because when you overdo it, you become the spokesperson for something that's beyond you.

Benjamin Suchar: But that's interesting, actually, because you've also experienced social dialogue, so it's kind of the same thing. You say we shouldn't overdo it, but what we shouldn't do is be radical at a certain point.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Actually, I think that all those, everything, all those and all the activists who are radical are the brave ones who help others. So we need a reaction. So obviously we need radicalism. Radicalism allows the cause to no longer be invisible, but it doesn't help to create operational links between people so that a project can succeed.

Benjamin Suchar: But in fact, it's a bit about timing. In other words, you have to start with quality in order to get a topic across, to be able to talk about it, and to be able to raise awareness. And what must follow radicalism is precisely the creation of a form of consensus. But ultimately, in France, we often remain at the radical stage and forget step two.

Bénédicte Tilloy: And you see, when you put it that way, I think it's exactly like creating a new organization, or rather a start-up. You have to be radical at the outset in order to exist. To establish yourself in a market, you have to take risks so you don't fall off your bike, and to expand bigger and wider. Then you have to be able to work with others, with people who have skills that you don't have, and accept that they give you advice on subjects that you're not competent in. It's a bit the same on a start-up. For me, diversity means being radical in order to make a different voice heard and, at the same time, ensuring that this different voice has a say among all the others and that it creates something different. Consensus is needed.

Benjamin Suchar: But it's also interesting in terms of profiles because there are activists. There are politicians, and ultimately everyone knows where they excel. You take an activist and ask them to go into politics. It doesn't always work. And the reverse probably works even less. So ultimately, you also have to know your comfort zone, the area where you excel, because you can't do everything, you don't know how to do everything. But actually, it's interesting because I've always been naturally radical, especially in political debate, if you like, but I've never identified with radicalism. Activist rhetoric, radical rhetoric. And then, thinking about it carefully, I realized that every social advance has required radicalism and that, in fact, I thought I was progressive, but that in order to be progressive, you have to be able to embrace the notion of radicalism. Because progressivism without radicalism. Throughout history, when you look at the struggle of minorities, the struggle against racial discrimination in the United States, even if you look back at the French Revolution, at some point, radicalism was always necessary. So it's essential, in fact. And so, you look at who you were with a new perspective and you say, "I was a toxic manager at one point, yes." And what is that? How did you realize it?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Because it's quite a terrible story, I went into the office of one of my colleagues, who I was expecting to be in a meeting with me in a large steering committee, and I got angry when she didn't show up, so I ended up going to look for her in her office, probably in a rather unfriendly tone. And I found her sitting behind her desk in tears, and I realized that I was the cause of it. I had given her so many issues to resolve that I hadn't realized she was overwhelmed and that I had actually become toxic. Not toxic because I wasn't listening to her, or rather, I was listening to her because I wasn't listening, because she couldn't take it anymore and I didn't see that she couldn't take it anymore. That story had a big impact on me.

Benjamin Suchar: And you understood that right away. Continue.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Yes, I understood that right away. That part, I understood right away. And I worked with the team, with my team, on how to prevent it from happening again. Because what I discovered to my horror was that the others knew about it and didn't tell me. So there were two issues. One was the relationship with this person, and the other was the fact that I wasn't creating an environment around me that allowed others to tell me that I was hurting someone by giving them too much responsibility because I trusted them. And, um. And we worked really well together. We created the Guardian Angels at a time when everyone was buddies.

Benjamin Suchar: Yeah, that's right, kind of like buddies.

Bénédicte Tilloy: And so, I finally, it's something I really believe in. It's not to confuse the manager with the buddy. The buddy is someone who cares independently of everything else. Whereas a manager is someone who has objectives to deploy.

Benjamin Suchar: If we take a slightly broader view, this time we're offering you the position of Minister of Labor. What do you do?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Um, I don't think I'll accept just yet.

Benjamin Suchar: Why are you talking to me about power? Can't you take it anymore?

Bénédicte Tilloy: No, no, because I don't know if I have it in me. I still have the courage to devote 150% of my time to this activity. Okay. And in fact, there's something that's not exemplary about the Minister of Labor, which is that to do his job well, he should put himself in the workers' shoes, that is, have a daily life that is fulfilling enough so that work doesn't represent his whole life. And as Minister of Labor, I think that work represents his whole life as a minister.

Benjamin Suchar: That's interesting. So, ultimately, there would be no role model at that point because it's too demanding. And so we would make a bad Minister of Labor, even when we're older. DH. Is there a measure like that that you would want to push forward in terms of work, seniors, power? On

Bénédicte Tilloy: For me, there's an interesting point. You talk about power. When you look at CAC 40 companies, you said earlier that it's always the same degrees. There's a kind of glass ceiling. Isn't there something that can be done? Isn't there something that can be done to develop intergenerational relations? Aren't there measures that can be developed? It's true that the Copé Zimmermann law allowed women to join boards of directors, and it worked. Maybe we need to do the same thing for seniors, i.e., have an index that guarantees the presence of seniors in all companies. The diversity index. The Americans, for example, have integrated it. That said, it has had contradictory effects because, if we're talking about radicalism, it has led to radicalism. And in fact, today we are experiencing a backlash. So now it's doing the opposite. It's producing the opposite effect. So that's how it is. But the difference may be that we're all going to get old.

Benjamin Suchar: That's true, you're right.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Well, you're right, you really crystallized the debate, you see, it was that there were a number of minorities that were... You're right, you're absolutely right, that's a valid argument. That is to say, among all forms of racism andageism, the one that can most backfire on us is the one we end up becoming, the one we didn't want to look at. And, um. And there. Um. Maybe. I'd like us to do that. Do you remember Shadow Comex? Yes, but for me it was. It was a period when we entrusted Comex to circles of young people in the company, strategic issues for them, to get their opinion on how to resolve them. Then afterwards, it was Comex, the real one, that took matters in hand. I might want to promote the opposite, that is, promote young people to positions of responsibility more quickly, but keep the older ones in internal advisory roles and have real shadow Comex made up of older people who actually help the younger ones not to feel overwhelmed when solving complicated problems in advisory roles.

Benjamin Suchar: Interesting, and even a role model, we've talked about it a lot. The CEO of Leroy Merlin, who became CEO at the age of 28, and that caused quite a stir. And finally, we should also be able to showcase people's new senior careers.

Bénédicte Tilloy: What's complicated for senior careers is the issue of compensation. That is to say, you would need to have ideal curves, accept having bell-shaped compensation curves. Yes, and in fact, the question is how does this interfere with the issue of retirement? Because if we accept a drop in salary at the end of our career, in fact, this should not be the starting point for the end of the pension that follows. So, there is something to be done about this.

Benjamin Suchar: Interesting, isn't it? Ultimately, you're saying that we should accept lower pay in order to be able to work, but ensure that retirement is not based solely on the end of our career, but on our best years. In fact.

Bénédicte Tilloy: For example, civil servants are nearing the end of their careers, so this is becoming a problem for them. In my case, when I left the SNCF, I lost money. But that was a decision I made. I returned to a world where my starting salary no longer mattered, so I started from scratch, and that opened up a whole range of possibilities. And in start-ups, you're betting on the future and you tell yourself that you're prepared to question things at the outset and earn less at the beginning with the prospect of earning more later because the company will do well. So it offers a potential model, but I'm well aware that it's a model for some and not for everyone. So we need to be able to work around that, i.e., something related to remuneration.

Benjamin Suchar: Have you heard of AI? Jim When you look at and study artificial intelligence models, the biases we all tend to have about people with visual impairments and seniors are reproduced. So you end up with AI that makes the same mistakes, the very same ones. The famous stories of the nurse and the doctor. A woman with a stethoscope around her neck, who would be a nurse, and a man who would be a doctor? Exactly. And for example, when you use artificial intelligence for recruitment, automatically, the resumes of people over 40 get thrown out. Do we need to re-educate?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Anyway, the question is this: the cruel thing about AI is that it's the future based on data from the past. And it's terrible to think that we're going to build the future based on data from the past. What we need to do is weave together experience and projections into the future. And in fact, what kind of projections into the future? What will AI consume so that data from the past isn't just a reproduction of the past?

Benjamin Suchar: Very interesting, very interesting. We're going to finish up with Bénédicte Tilloy with two cards in front of you. You have a Utopia card and a Dystopia card. I'm asking you to choose one of these two cards so that we can... I don't know if I'm allowed to choose Utopia, or... You don't know if it's Dystopia or Utopia. Oh, okay. So you'll see, you'll be able to show it to the camera here. So dystopia this time, we're in 2040, we still have a little more time. We're in a world where the working population is aging, and there's a European decree that requires every manager over the age of 55 to take a management retention test every two years. Multiple-choice questions on digital agility, emotional scenarios, reverse authority tests in front of a team of juniors. Only 28% are deemed fit to remain in their positions. The others are reassigned, sometimes demoted without notice. The unions cry ageism, the young applaud. The debate rages on. Which side do you choose? Which camp do you choose?

Bénédicte Tilloy: Which camp do I want to be part of, the 28%? That's the first thing. I want to be part of the 28%. What that suggests to me is that, in fact, what you're describing about seniors' ability to remain in their jobs is their ability to question themselves. Questioning yourself means accepting that what you have learned is no longer useful and that you have to learn what is useful. And if you don't do that, you actually become a problem. In fact, in an organization. So that's what it ultimately evokes for me.

Benjamin Suchar: In fact, there's also what people say, which is that the criteria are very technical. And everything you've said during this podcast is that it's not so much the technical skills you've brought to the table, it's your experience, your human skills, the vision you can bring, and your ability to get people to work together. And I don't know if that can be tested technically.

Bénédicte Tilloy: In fact, my belief, based on my experience, is that projects succeed through relationships with others. For example, if I take the issue of meetings, meetings are truly an absolute nightmare. In a start-up, they devote half an hour to them, which is already a lot. And the idea of having steering committees that last two hours is impossible. Now, I question that because in a potential steering committee, there may be people around the table who we think are not very useful, but in fact, they are potential allies for the future who are not in the spotlight. If we have them, if at some point we don't allow them to be on board.

Benjamin Suchar: So there are two elements, in fact. There's collective intelligence that can come from debate, but there's also the fact that, even if there's no collective intelligence, what you're saying is that you allow people to be involved, to finally feel like they're part of a story. That's what you said at the beginning of the podcast. That's how you do it.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Exactly. Everyone. And you know, there's a well-known story about Kennedy visiting NASA during the heyday of the Apollo programs, and he sees the guard at the entrance and asks him, "What do you do? What's your job?" And he says, "Well, we're just trying to send little men to the moon." And in fact, that's what the guy is and that's what he does. It's probably in his job description. It's nothing at all. But if that's his goal. And if that's actually his hope, that he'll finally succeed in his career, it's to contribute to that. The fact of being a guard and just welcoming people. He'll welcome them differently, you see?

Benjamin Suchar: He understands the goal. He understands the ultimate goal and. That's. Part of it. And so it makes sense. Ultimately, when we discuss issues of power, when we discuss generational issues, when we discuss utopia, dystopia. The common thread is meaning, which is what you say with this NASA guardian. And it's about successfully sharing meaning with your entire executive committee, with your entire company, in order to rediscover a sense of community and creativity on a global level.

Bénédicte Tilloy: It's actually about allowing everyone to draw on what makes them most proud in order to contribute to the project you're proposing, which you're asking them to join.

Benjamin Suchar: Great! Thank you very much, Bénédicte Tilloy.

Bénédicte Tilloy: Thank you, see you soon.

Benjamin Suchar: See you soon. Thank you to everyone who watched this episode on YouTube or listened to it on podcast platforms. You can share your thoughts and questions in the comments and support the podcast by spreading the word. See you soon for the next episode!

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